We've Got Mail!
To:
Subject: Site comments
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:36:48 -0400
Loved the site. You made some interesting and very true points about the Christian attitude and their "Oh, we are so right and you are going to hell" perspective on life and everything in it, even on Lost
In Space episodes... sad really. I personally don't like to dwell on the Christian perspective, I happen to be a sort of "Atheist fundamentalist" (not like those militant, rude Christian fundies, but I digress), but every now and then with as horrid and critical Christians are, they have to be addressed.
I find that attitude demeaning, and you make a good point about the Christian belief makes itself nonfalsifiable, when "God" is nfalliable it's hard to argue to the contrary. I noticed this attitude, "The
Bible is infalliable" because "it says so", but why do they listen to that? "It says in the Bible it's infalliable" and "if the Bible is infalliable then it is infalliable so it isn't lying to me when it tells me it is". Horrendous cyclic thought, a sort of "I believe it because it's true and it's true because I believe it"... using the ends to justify the means and the means to justify the ends. I don't like to be this blunt, but I would have to say that is pretty idiotic.
Not to say they all are like that, some Christians are "informed" on the issues, but trend is the more informed you are on the processes of life, the more Atheist you are likely to be. Regardless, I'd be
half happy if all those people put a little forethought before bluntly accepting a book that is 2000+ years old, written by people likely to be complete idiots compared to now, professing the tales of a man who claims to be the "son of God" (like every other half-wit of the era). You should weigh every opinion for what it's worth, and the Bible's claims are very very heavy. If you weigh them for what they are worth, they aren't worth it. Atheism's claims are almost as impacting, but if you notice they are justifiable. Well, that's our opinion at least. I meant to ask, do you request they give you proof of God? In my long amount of time on the subject, it's something that will never happen... even in a Atheist's favor, not in our lifetime will we or never have we prove/disprove God outside of logistic arguements, which always seem to be proof enough for anyone. Logistic arguements are
nothing without physical observation, although I use them often, they don't hold ultimate bearing on reality.
I could believe in God without proof... BUT it had better be a damn damn damn lot of material that is pointing in all ways toward a God's presence, including physical theory, natural habitat, social
development, it would have to touch on every aspect of the world and be SO obvious that it is nigh impossible to claim otherwise, in other words, when I believe in something that I can't prove (such as
Atheism), I use a form of "informed faith" as opposed to pure (and don't confuse all faith with this) "blind faith". As much as the mainstream Christian population thinks they have that, "informed faith", they don't. All they got is their shallow interpretation that God is here (taken from the perspective their is a God to begin with), and a bunch of criticism for anything that limits their view of "God"... i.e. evolution and the big bang theory (2 center pieces of their respective sciences, biology and physics of all brands), which BOTH where removed from the Kansas Board of Education curriculum. Despite their massive evidence for the contrary, to the point they both should be considered law, science lost a battle to what?... oh no, they didn't lose to better science, but religion?! That is when you know the world is going to that much more crap, when assumption beats out observation, speculation beats science, faith overrides fact. Sad really.
Okay, don't wanna keep ya. I don't like getting into these long rambles about Christians, they aren't worth the time when I could be doing things to Atheist benifit. By the way, I wouldn't mind you
telling me why you became Atheist, and if you are interested, you can have my view of the concept. I know it sounds like a "religious" Atheism, but religion isn't that bad of a term if used properly, and
not accepted solely on the dogmatic Christian view of "religion". If you accept any term solely on how Christians use it, 9 times out of 10 you'll disagree, that is, when you are Atheist. Maybe I just have the fading ideal to get rid of the militant anti-Theist "atheists" that plagues our belief like Bible thumpers plague Christians... if we all resorted to information instead of criticism, you'd find more people making informed decisions, not ignorant ones. As much as Christians don't agree on the Bible, we don't agree on what Atheism is... but if we do agree, just like when Christians do, it's usually to spite every other belief, which isn't growth of our perception on life. Of course, I'm not gonna keep you all day on that conversation either.
Hope to hear from you soon,
My Reply: Thanks for writing. I apologize for the chaotic formatting. Webspawner has some fascinating quirks. :) You make a lot of valid points.
As to why I became an Atheist, I must confess that at one time I was a True Believer. But I kept getting bothered by all the excuses; how an obvious biblical contradiction was explained away as not being a contradiction at all; how if someone who claims to be a christian does something wrong, then that person was obviously not a christian, by
definition. Christians find their way by a predigested philosophy. I had to muddle through on my own, before finally finding a general philosophy that worked.
I use the philosophy of science itself as a guide: Nothing is cast in stone. The only good idea is one that can stand the Gauntlet of debate and examination. Any idea that cannot stand up to such a process should be discarded. Even if an idea fills an inner need, it must
be discarded when a superior idea comes along. And so on.
The funny thing is, at one time I was an Atheist who believed in some woo woo ideas: UFOs, ESP, and so on. It's amazing how skepticism and Atheism dovetail together, and equally amazing how long I stayed in that halfway state. Some christians are aware of people like that; they try to demolish Atheism by refuting the paranormal-- which is
strange, given how mystical christianity is.
Generally, I avoid religious debates, precisely because the religious types have put themselves into a position whereby they can't be wrong. I am often accused of being close-minded. Yet at the same time, all I would need would be unambigiuos (ie unique) proof og god's existence. When you ask the Believers what would falsify their beliefs, they
usually say something like "I know I'm right." That sounds downright fascistic to me.
Again, thanks for writing.
From: "Danger Mouse"
To: borcan@hotmail.com
CC:
Subject: some good points...
Hi there, just happened to chance upon your page and I liked a few points you made.
1) "believe first, then see" is a good way or expressing the frustrating concept of putting the cart before the horse; a concept completely contrary to that of the scientific method which incidentally brought Alex his computer on which he pronounces his acerebral anti-secular comments.
It reminds me of someone who 'begs the question', or takes as proof for something, that very thing on the judgement table to be proven.
conclusion:
"The Bible is God's word"
Premise:
"The Bible says it is..."
Soon, though, this term will mean what it sounds like, as too few people know its true meaning...
Anyway, secondly, I liked how you pointed out exactly what makes
christianity, or any religion for that matter successful: the fact that it is simply a meme. "a belief system with built in ways of making itself nonfalsifiable" much like the genetic material found in every living thing, we find in christianity all the same ingredients which keep it alive:
* A way of spreading or procreating ('you should go to church, son...')
* A way of keeping those in it already from straying (Hmmm, so you say I could spend eternal damnation burning in hell with all sorts of mean beasts n' stuff, or go live on cloud nine...)
* A way to provide a successful culture, at least minimalistically: it is said that the 'black skinned' human evolved first, and the 'white skinned' human merely mutated accidentally from them. they were still able to survive without the pigment, however, white people are prone to skin cancer, worse sun burns, etc. similarly, christianity might prove successful through its ability to survive, but this in no way means it is the most successful. There were a couple more, but i think you get the point...
One more thing, you are SO right about how Bible quotes and other extraneous and gauche (sp?) sentiments derail true and good
conversations/arguments. This I don't think is a mistake, however.
It is a successful strategy in argumentation to derail others' arguments when either your argument is now obviously full of holes, or you just don't know how to reply. Things like a technicality of speech mechanics even. I must say, it is annoying. but people learn to do it from teachers who use them to pass on what they believe in.
Anyway, I hope you fix up this page (more than just text). I have a few essays and such on these matters, and a few concerning how morality came from evolution (not the hand of god and so forth) if you are at all interested.
One more thing though, it may make for more interesting reading, however I find that the usual difference between atheists and believers is that atheists need no sarcasm, nor rhetoric to win arguments, or make points. When we do, it makes us look nearly as bad as those who do (nearly always believers), but then again, we could never look that bad...
Please write back if you find the time, and Good luck!
Answer: Thanks for the positive input. I'm sorry for the delay in answering your letter. The page didn't get hits for so long that I had given up on it. And then, when I was reminded that it had been 50 days since I modified the page, lo and behold! The page had blossomed into something not exactly successful, but not exactly dead either.
I really can't do too much to the page. I'd have to pay extra for graphics and so on. It'll have to stay content driven for a while yet. :)
As for sarcasm: it's in my very nature. I could no more write without sarcasm than I could believe in what the droolers are trying to sell me.
From: craig
To: borcan@hotmail.com
Subject: response
Date: 25 Jun 99 23:42:25 PDT
I spent some time reading your comments to believers in God and found your views really radical. I won't spend any of my time quoting Bible verses. However, I have yet to meet an evolutionist who can prove that there isn't a God. The simple fact that an evolutionist can't explain how the earth can spin at an even speed, without stopping,and tilt back and forth at the same time it is spinning defies the whole law of physics. It is impossible to explain from a nonbelievers point of view. So, how is this possible? Where did cole, zinc, metal, wind, gravity, plastic, etc.... come from? Is it by coicidence that we have all this and more to support our mere existance? Why is it if you leave our atmosphere there is no friction? There is nothing? You want proof there is a God look around. There is not one human being who has or ever will create something out of nothing. Show me one? I can prove there is a God? Can you prove there isn't? Wouldn't you like to know that your existance is more important than to die and be non existant? Lets pretend we put you in a rocket and blast you into outer space. You pick the direction. Do you not agree that no matter what direction you go in that space is eternal? I am going to assume that you believe with the majority that space is eternal. So, you are headed in one straight line into outer space. Where does it end? It doesn't. You are
blasting into outer space in one direction for a trillion years....it is eternal. Why then is it so hard for you to believe there is a God? Who made what formed from the Big Bang Theory? Did it just appear? Someone made the matter that formed into our planets. Can you answer that question? I can. God is living. I believe in the Faith theory. I believe in what I feel and what God has shown me. I have seen great works done by the God our Father. Someday I will look upon His Awesome Face. I would like to think that you would like to know your existance means more to you than just living, dying, and being nothing. We are the only free will thinking beings on this planet. Can you prove otherwise? You seem like a fairly intelligent person and I will pray
really hard for you to find the Truth. I cannot think of anything worse than a nonbeliever who has not accepted the Truth standing before God Almighty and God saying I do not know you depart from me. I have no problem proving God exists. I said before, I can prove it. Can you prove He doesn't? AMEN.
This is how the message was formatted: it was all in one big lump ("Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"). Either the e mail software messed up, or this person doesn't know of paragraphs. I'll leave it to you, as to what is the truth. :)
Answer: I can't really add to this. I don't know where "cole" came from. That I admit. Explain what "cole" is, and I may have a better understanding.
I appreciate your bringing up the old Criswell "Can you prove it didn't happen?" concept, straight from the film "Plan 9 From Outer Space." I know the UFO woo woos use that sort of illogic; I didn't know xian woo woos were that far gone. If you have this "proof," then enter it here. Put up or shut up.
Go to our second page of e mail
Back to main page
 WebSpawner Page Machine |
Send E-Mail to: lisfan2666@hotmail.comCopyright © 2000 Ferb Ferble. All Rights Reserved